tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144399754818696603.post5569292699574108074..comments2023-10-05T03:21:41.343-06:00Comments on Invictus Pilgrim: "A Situation That Defies Our Nature"Invictus Pilgrimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15961213460164925021noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144399754818696603.post-53178388007652590472011-05-26T23:10:15.157-06:002011-05-26T23:10:15.157-06:00Anonymous - Thank you for sharing your thoughts an...Anonymous - Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences. It sounds as though you might have a similar experience to many wives in mixed-orientation marriages, though it sounds like your husband isn't gay, just detached. And you're right: authenticity to self embraces more than just sexual orientation. Best to you, too, in your journey.Invictus Pilgrimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15961213460164925021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144399754818696603.post-21557259054410829212011-05-26T13:35:31.865-06:002011-05-26T13:35:31.865-06:00Although I am a heterosexual,I too am dying emotio...Although I am a heterosexual,I too am dying emotionally. I am female married 25 years. I have adult children. Although I am married, I too, discount and deny a part of myself. I am married to a man who does not feel me. This may sound trivial when compared to being in a MoM. Let me assure you, it is not. There is not a day that goes by without aching for him to see me, know me, choose me over baseball games. Not a day goes by without my wondering what could have been. Am I being authentic to my self? It doesn't feel like it. He is good and kind to me. He provides for me. He loves me...in his mind. I feel solo in a marriage There has been no sexual intimacy for years. I have made the decision to stay so as not to disturb my childrens' lives. I love the man as well. The love is caring...I have a part of me dying as well due to my choice. But I will do anything...give anything...even give up the intimacy (emotional and sexual) of love, for my children. All this to say that gay or straight, we can have the same problems, challenges,etc. It is authenticity to self, not just to sexual orientation that is so important. I wish you all the best in your journey and in an odd way, its nice to know I'm not alone.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144399754818696603.post-70859337433229366422011-01-25T15:12:42.154-07:002011-01-25T15:12:42.154-07:00@ju - Thank you for your thoughtful and thought-pr...@ju - Thank you for your thoughtful and thought-provoking comments. I really appreciate both your Eve analogy (which I think is quite profound) and what your therapist said about letting other people own their own reactions. <br /><br />I agree that these things "must needs be so." Adam and Eve had to leave the garden to fulfill their destiny and, ultimately, to live who they were created to be.<br /><br />Very best wishes as you continue on your journey.Invictus Pilgrimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15961213460164925021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144399754818696603.post-14310879228637253182011-01-25T14:39:13.638-07:002011-01-25T14:39:13.638-07:00what i've realized in my own recent therapy se...what i've realized in my own recent therapy sessions is that we absorb an incredible amount of guilt as we decide to come out. one of the ways i coped with leaving the religion i loved behind so i could forge a new life worth living was to see the mythology in my favor: eve has a choice, to stay or to leave. she knows that if she eats the fruit, she'll die, and bring the fall into the world-- pain and sorrow for everyone. but she did it thoughtfully, and she did it anyway, because she knew greater truth would come of it. in this way, i felt i could decide to leave the lds garden with a clear conscience. when i rehearsed this story to my therapist, he sat back and said, "what it sounds like you're saying is that you are responsible for everyone else's reactions to your coming out." he then drew up this lengthy stone-hitting-the-water metaphor, but that the water the stone hits is an equal agent and can decide whether or how to accommodate the thrown stone. it's taken me a while to realize that my family and friends who can't and don't accept me for who i am have their own issues they need to deal with, and it isn't my fault. so many friends told me that for months and months, and it never sunk in until i was in the middle of it, therapist in hand, and could see that yes, my sister does have her own issues and fears. they're hers and no one else's. relationships really are the most important things in the world, but they are also just one of those things we don't have complete control over. it takes two. i never got into a MOM, so i really don't have the experience to tell, but i think it's possible for families to survive this issue. i do! i say that and i'm only half-out to my own family. but i think you can keep your kids and you and your wife can move on and maintain healthy relationships-- with enough work and love, i think it's possible. the church doesn't have everything figured out, and at a certain point we really have to take our lives into our own hands, like eve, even if it means being cast out, breaking commandments, seeing the hurt outside ourselves. but trust me on this one-- YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL OF THE PAIN. it's not your fault. you are so awesome exactly the way you are, and the world needs that more than anything. authentic, beautiful, you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144399754818696603.post-54371621435870081862011-01-02T05:20:28.551-07:002011-01-02T05:20:28.551-07:00Now that several days have passed and others have ...<i>Now that several days have passed and others have had opportunity to comment on James' and Scott's situation, I thought I'd post extracts of my own reply to James after he wrote to me:</i><br /><br />As to your decision to leave your gay lifestyle and come back the church and eventually marry - please, please, please do not berate yourself. You did what you did then for honest, valid and authentic reasons. You are not the same person today that you were then, and you were not the person then that you are today. You, like many of us have the propensity to do, are judging yourself as you were then based on what you know and understand now. This is not at all fair to the person you once were. So I encourage you to "forgive" yourself and decide that what really matters is what you do from this point forward, not what you did 25 years ago. (I'm trying very hard to apply this same counsel to myself.)<br /> <br />This brings me to your statements: <i>"If I am authentic then as a gay man I should not be married, and reason would have it that I should also seek a relationship that will make me whole. If I am authentic then as a father I cannot abandon my family to whom I am morally and emotionally committed."</i> With regards to the first sentence, I think this is where Carol Lynn Pearson's advice comes into play. I think the question is not what you should or should not do, but rather what you are <i>capable</i> and not capable of doing, living with honesty and integrity. If you come to a point where you feel you are not capable of continuing in your marriage, then you should perhaps consider making a change for your own benefit as well as that of your wife. Only you can make this decision. I know this decision is more difficult and complicated where, as in your situation, your wife is truly your friend and has shown a willingness to "work with" the situation. It has been made dramatically easier in my situation because my wife wants to proceed with separation and, eventually, divorce.<br /> <br />With regards to the second sentence, I would suggest for your consideration that being true to your gay nature does not necessarily mean that you cannot be an "authentic father" and that you would be "abandoning" your children. Leaving aside the gay issue, and speaking in very general terms, if a couple are having serious marital problems and they decide to separate, does that necessarily mean the father is abandoning his children? No. Is the situation any different when the father decides that he can no longer function in a marriage because he is gay? I would submit that the answer to that question is "No." The reasons, facts and circumstances may be different in each instance, but the end result is the same: one or both spouses decide that he/she/they can no longer continue in the marriage. <br /> <br />No matter what the reasons, separation and divorce does not necessarily = abandonment of children by their father. In fact, quite the opposite may end up being the case, i.e., despite the fact that the father may not be there for all the day-to-day happenings in the life of his children, he may end up having a much closer and more authentic relationship with his children because of the separation / divorce than he otherwise would have. <br /> <br />Obviously, these are very difficult questions/issues. As I said previously, I feel your pain.Invictus Pilgrimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15961213460164925021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144399754818696603.post-53818889219433446842011-01-01T08:42:28.951-07:002011-01-01T08:42:28.951-07:00Thanks to all who have left comments for James and...Thanks to all who have left comments for James and Scott. I am sure they were and are appreciated.Invictus Pilgrimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15961213460164925021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144399754818696603.post-30887541432379011052011-01-01T00:44:41.140-07:002011-01-01T00:44:41.140-07:00The segment of your post from "James" re...The segment of your post from "James" resonates with me about being authentic, "If I am authentic then as a father I cannot abandon my family to whom I am morally and emotionally committed".<br /><br />While I no longer believe in the church and have that tying me to my family, marriage vows and fatherhood responsibility do.Mister Curiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00113134172902610883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144399754818696603.post-67652675145969454572010-12-31T12:07:11.055-07:002010-12-31T12:07:11.055-07:00I think the most profound thing you wrote here was...I think the most profound thing you wrote here was when you said "I don’t care about the Church any more. They offer me nothing, but expect me to deny everything about myself. Yet, when I read the scriptures, they say something entirely different. When I attend the temple, I get answers I need, not the lame half-answers the Church hands out. God says one thing... while the Church says something else."<br /><br />That is profoundly true and it is a tragic reality that the Church is plagued with. There is a definite cognitive and spiritual dissonance between the Church and the scriptures as well as the temple. I believe that God has sent and is sending many gay children into LDS households to shake the Church up and to wake them up to that reality. To me the truth never hurts, only the lies that are believed are what people become painfully aware of in the presence of truth. The truth is the Church has painted themselves into a corner on the gay issue and several other important issues as well. Yes the family is important but the family also consists of single people, widows and widowers, divorced individuals, re-married (mixed families), same sex households where gay couples are raising children, single gay men or women raising children and so on. Joseph Smith, Jr. the prophet's all encompassing statement about this is found in his grand fundamental principles when he said that "Friendship is one of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism". The Church rarely if ever quotes this anymore. That's another tragic loss in understanding because that statement by Joseph Smith, Jr. is far more in line with the teachings of Christ than the Proclamation on the Family. Terry Tempest Williams (a wonderful poet and naturalist/environmental activist) has made many statements about being a Latter-day Saint at heart (her heritage, etc.) but being in deep disagreement with the LDS culture (the institutional Church) especially in Utah. Many of her statements have resonated with me not only as a gay man but as an environmental activist as well. She once wrote "What happens when our institutions no longer serve us - no longer reflect the truth of our experience? What we know is not what we hear." Terry Tempest Williams from her book entitled LEAP.<br /><br />The main reason the majority of LGBT Latter-day Saints end up leaving the LDS Church is obviously because we do not feel welcome, included in the divine plan, part of the family so to speak. Unfortunately that family (the LDS Church) happens to be dysfunctional right now and though many of us need to love that family from a distance, our growth and integrity DOES affect the LDS Church and does affect change for the better. <br /><br />I have found the more that we as a LGBT community (collectively) are in integrity and being true to ourselves the more mature and strong we become. How can the LDS Church not be affected? Whatever road you choose I know you will choose the one that brings you into an ever increasing place of self-discovery, happiness, deepening integrity and many wonderful surprises that you never dreamed of. You do not have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. In fact that would be tragic if you did. You do have the joyous blessing of sifting through everything and holding close those values that serve you and that bring forth love which is the only thing that really matters.Benjaminnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144399754818696603.post-37578498653012713432010-12-31T12:05:26.935-07:002010-12-31T12:05:26.935-07:00I don't believe that it is impossible to recon...I don't believe that it is impossible to reconcile the basic core principles of the restored Gospel with being gay. Some people see these things as black and white or mutually exclusive. I do not. It's not that simple. Mormonism is very complex and yet the Church as an institution has dummed its own history and the Gospel down as they have tried to simplify everything. In that process they have actually ignored many great and important principles. The Church needs its gay members but it needs them out and honest even if they need to interact with the Church from a safe and healthy distance. The more this occurs (along with the rest of the country and the world acknowledging our equality) the more the LDS Church will be forced to begin to reconcile this issue and the Church as an institution will be put in our shoes and have to wrestle much as we have with this struggle to reconcile the two. They are reaping what they have sown. They must go through this as well.<br /><br />If you have ever read the writings of John Gustav Wrathal you'll understand what I mean. Look him up. He's a gay man who's core Identify is also LDS. He has reconciled his God given gift of being gay with his LDS faith to the degree that is possible for him and left the rest of it up to God. He is deeply spiritual and very happy as he has been in a relationship with his partner for many years. It's gay men like him who are the change that the LDS Church needs for what is the Church if not for its members including families with LGBT members? (continued)Benjaminnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144399754818696603.post-21443138395820164222010-12-30T21:20:18.769-07:002010-12-30T21:20:18.769-07:00James and Scott - I left my wife and children six ...James and Scott - I left my wife and children six plus years ago in order to stop dying emotionally. The depressions, to be sure, had been getting worse every summer for about five years. What has happened is that my life has been filled with amazing experiences, a hospitalization, new friends (a couple of whom will probably be lifetimers) as well as very lonely seasons. Slowly, I have come to see that life continued. For better. And, yes, sometimes, for worse. <br /><br />I miss my kids (now 17, 15, 13) EVERY day. The pain never stops. But what I remember most about those crazy days in which I knew it had come time to make the Big decision was this: I was emotionally killing my wife; I was allowing myself to become next to nothing. I chose to stop the slow motion dying. Save two adults; pray for three kids. Both my ex and I have really grown, although she wants no part of me now.<br /><br />I left the church (Utah county actually) to begin to heal. I didn't know if I would ever return. Not because I was becoming promiscuous. But because I came to see quickly that I would no longer away my power of conscience to straight men who truly did NOT "get" me. In the process of stepping away (and moving to my roots in New York City), I came to see that the gospel is actually pretty huge. And that I could forgive men (it was in my power to do so) for being so clueless (but, of course, meaning well). I have come back into the church. But, with much greater caution. <br /><br />I guess what I did was to let go of everything. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. But, in the process, I learned a lot. To live a life of significance. To serve with no expectations back. To love - whether colleagues at work, the missionaries, or a sad one sitting next to me on the subway. I am free to be the powerful man that I am. Rather than "cutting things off". <br /><br />Choices DO have consequences. But, lest we forget, sometimes choices are a mixed bag - some good, some not so good stemming from them. The choice then, did not lead to a solution. It led me, simply, to now.Martinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144399754818696603.post-1739904993138260052010-12-30T10:58:54.526-07:002010-12-30T10:58:54.526-07:00It is interesting how all of our stories are so si...It is interesting how all of our stories are so similar. <br /><br />I realized there was no cure for the "curse" four years into my marriage. That's when I told my wife that I was gay. We could have divorced then, but were equally committed to providing our children the best possible opportunities in life and we did love one another. We determined as the closest of friends to make our marriage work and build a solid Gospel-centered family. <br /><br />It was not easy. In fact, it was at times impossibly difficult. But my wife and I remained true to that commitment. <br /><br />The result is that each of our five children went on missions, graduated from BYU and were married in the temple--all that the stereotypical Mormon parents could ask.<br /><br />Last year when the last child married, I felt my responsibility to them was finished and determined that I could move forward with my life.<br /><br />And I have. It has been glorious--like a second birth.<br /><br />While I readily advise no one to follow my path, for the most part it has worked for me. In the end, my former wife and I made what could have been an impossible situation acceptable and even satisfying with tremendous rewards for our sacrifice.Clive Durhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13429000026909551119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144399754818696603.post-75079096861676166852010-12-30T10:29:40.138-07:002010-12-30T10:29:40.138-07:00These stories are heart-rending. Rob's comment...These stories are heart-rending. Rob's comment summarizes my own feelings about the situation, but I'd like to add a note about depression. Depression results from hopelessness, a feeling of having no options. I think there are options here. The most obvious involves the trauma of major life change, but there are other options as well. Coming out to family and friends is possible. Acquiring new friends who support you is another. The first step in this this kind of situation to <i>break the silence</i> and get a discussion started.<br /><br />I wish institutional Mormonism and LDS culture in general were a friendlier place for gay people than it is. It's a grave complication in situations like these. We need to be realistic about this and proceed from there. Some orthodox views may have to be discarded for the sake of health and sanity. Some friendships and even family relationships may not survive. Coming out can be a painful process, but it's the only thing I've seen work in cases like these.<br /><br />Your kids aren't best served when you are barely functioning emotionally due to depression and unhappiness. I know in my own case that my ability to parent improved after I came out. I was more present and more able to give my kids what they needed. Yes, divorce did involve a number of difficult problems, yet on the whole I'm convinced that in my case it improved the lives of every person involved-- my ex-wife, myself and my children. You don't leave your children when a marriage ends. This is a complete myth.<br /><br />I think there is reason to hope. The first step is to reach out to people who can help. I'd suggest a gay father's group as a starting point.MoHoHawaiihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15086670779804942122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144399754818696603.post-34470697289335955982010-12-30T10:29:37.355-07:002010-12-30T10:29:37.355-07:00I don't know. I hope you don't mind that ...I don't know. I hope you don't mind that I quote some excerpts from this post in my book. I see the sharp dilemma and am at a loss for how to proceed- I'm sorry.Brad Carmackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10085934989070955986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144399754818696603.post-91297786457284856452010-12-30T05:54:59.487-07:002010-12-30T05:54:59.487-07:00To both of these brothers:
I've been where yo...To both of these brothers:<br /><br />I've been where you are, in so many ways. You have both correctly sized up your futures within the LDS Church. After a couple years of wrestling with it myself, I came to the conclusion that despite the fumbling, probably good-faith intentions of the LDS organization, there really is no reconciling being gay with Mormon theology. You have to give up one of them eventually in order to really live with honesty and integrity. I think experience shows which way most end up going.<br /><br />For a while I too couldn't see my way forward and was dying inside. I don't know how your paths will play out. Just don't give up. There was a time in my life when I truly, honestly thought I couldn't go on. I never thought of taking my own life, but expected I would probably just slip away in my sleep or something because I really didn't think I could continue. <br /><br />Thankfully, that didn't happen. Transitions can be difficult, but having been through most of it now, I can say that in so many ways life is so much better, almost miraculous even. So whatever you do, don't give up. Happiness and honest living with integrity is possible. And it doesn't have to cost your relationship with your kids; mine are 100% with me and I know I'm very blessed.<br /><br />The other thing you should never forget is that you are not alone. Over two years after coming out, I continue to marvel at how so much of my own experience, right down to little details, is shared by so many others! One of the most pernicious results of the Mormon approach to gay people is we're made to think we are completely alone, that nobody else could be as off the mark as we are. Well it just ain't so. I can guarantee that virtually everything you've thought and felt has been thought and felt by so many others, you'd hardly believe it. So don't be afraid to share your hearts and thoughts and feelings; reaching out online or by blogging is a great way to do that. You'll find amazing support from other guys who totally get what you're going through 'cause we've been there too. Please don't fail to take advantage of that community support. It's been a lifeline for me and can be for you as well.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992194211469009236noreply@blogger.com