tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144399754818696603.post7289220399394338543..comments2023-10-05T03:21:41.343-06:00Comments on Invictus Pilgrim: Why Would Heavenly Father Do That?Invictus Pilgrimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15961213460164925021noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144399754818696603.post-46150707795189406582010-12-12T16:32:06.991-07:002010-12-12T16:32:06.991-07:00It seems to me, after reading this post, that the ...It seems to me, after reading this post, that the unspoken false premise behind President Packer's question is the premise that your daughter questioned, namely, "that if you keep the commandments and do what God asks you to do, He’ll bless you." Understanding that the blessing involves a guarantee of happiness in this life. It is this false expectation of happiness as a result of following God's will, that leads to loss of faith when people who realize that God hasn't made them happy. I once had a conversation in which a young man asked me if God would take care of him if he lived a moral, prayerful, and faithful life. My answer was, "No." I explained that God does not promise us happiness in this life, but what he promises is much better: eternal joy.<br /><br />Of course, living authentically is no more a guarantee of happiness than following the commandments.naturgesetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15268507379933286863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144399754818696603.post-10850329748955394672010-12-09T02:57:09.296-07:002010-12-09T02:57:09.296-07:00To come back to Hawaii's comment: I do think t...To come back to Hawaii's comment: I do think that the key to life is in arriving at a point when one can accept that Life is based on chaos, not order. Man makes order in an attempt to control. I do not in anyway, like Hawaii, that this means that acceptance is ambivalence or passiveness. I value acceptance as a quest of seeing life's horrors and beauties and seeing the "other" as a human being that merits respect, which requires tolerance, which requires understanding. <br /><br />I believe that people have tolerance issues, when they are enclosed within rules and measurements, in other words: something does not correspond to the linear path needed, or formula of A+B+C, to ACHIEVE a final result of perfection. This "imperfection", roughness, or deviation bothers and can enrage (look at the wars today). But here again, it is in the bother and the enraging that beauty can be seen if we choose to see it. <br /><br />Chaos causes crashes, but it also causes ENCOUNTERS. These encounters surprise, are spontaneous and poetic. They speak to the core of our being. The simple reason that they speak to the core of our being underlines its beauty and importance. I am not familiar with the concepts Hawaii mentions, but can only base this on my own personal beliefs and also concepts I research in modern literature and 'marginal' philosophy.<br /><br />As human beings, we are able to feel and think, and chaos enables this. I see chaos like a patchwork or a collage that is constantly changing. It creates an end result yet continues to create because of its creative process. Imagine a jagged, red mosaic piece that sits down next to another curvy and yellow. Each piece is its own identity, and together they with the other pieces create a beautiful ensemble. But, the simple contact of them all being together creates an energy that is imprevisble, that cannot be planned or calculated. This energy will enable each piece to discover the other, but to create a new creative process where they will continue to shift and move ... <br /><br />We are trained to want to control that process. Nothing keeps us from being a PART of the dynamic: engaging with the pieces and movements that speak to us. These engagements will change us ... and that is what is magical ... how will it change us? Only for the better because we make a conscious decision to participate or retract and as Hawaii said, to witness the beauty of the process. <br /><br />Ok, perhaps too much philosophizing for this morning? I hope that this makes sense!Libellulehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07633236721899345816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144399754818696603.post-61862542508337837652010-12-08T20:40:32.629-07:002010-12-08T20:40:32.629-07:00CentralParkWesterner - Thank you for your kind wor...CentralParkWesterner - Thank you for your kind words. I wish you well as you begin writing. If you share your thoughts in a blog, please let us know.Invictus Pilgrimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15961213460164925021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144399754818696603.post-76905769286058612932010-12-08T19:41:06.108-07:002010-12-08T19:41:06.108-07:00This is a GREAT blog - thank you for your extensiv...This is a GREAT blog - thank you for your extensive writing, invictus pilgrim. You have inspired me to begin writing myself, something I have bottled up for the five years since I was sitting in a hospital, with my mind shattered into scores of pieces.CentralParkWesternernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144399754818696603.post-40262175945120590472010-12-08T14:20:17.348-07:002010-12-08T14:20:17.348-07:00Utahhiker - I hadn't heard about this yet, but...Utahhiker - I hadn't heard about this yet, but it doesn't surprise me. I think you make an excellent point about suggestions turning into commandments (except when the brethren, at the end of priesthood session of conference, encourage civility and obedience to the law while driving).<br /><br />Thanks also for your insight about the "marketing plan". As I sit here, your comment has evoked so many thoughts ... I think I'll just have to leave it at that for now.Invictus Pilgrimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15961213460164925021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144399754818696603.post-65799849500800825562010-12-08T14:05:41.338-07:002010-12-08T14:05:41.338-07:00Last night, my wife and I had a discussion. The c...Last night, my wife and I had a discussion. The church recently sent out a memo "encouraging" members to reference Mormon.org on their facebook, twitter and other social networking sites. I was really bothered by the idea that the church was telling me how to advertise to my friends.<br /><br />My wife thought I was being a bit harsh and saw it only as something that the church wanted people to possibly consider doing. <br /><br />My argument was that if the church is "encouraging" members to do things, then it viewed by all as something we're "supposed" to be doing. Suggestions are understood by many (or most) to be commandments.<br /><br />As a result, in my mind it degrades any attempt to live a spiritual or religious life down to a marketing plan.<br /><br />This raises no small amount of revulsion on my part. But I think that comes across in my rambling...<br /><br />Thanks for your blog, Invictus.Utahhiker801https://www.blogger.com/profile/06358909048430492121noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144399754818696603.post-31261653565727199832010-12-08T11:39:07.810-07:002010-12-08T11:39:07.810-07:00James - Thank you for your very well articulated c...James - Thank you for your very well articulated comments. Again, reading comments such as yours about your own experiences empowers me as I continue on my pilgrimage: I feel like I'm not alone and I'm not crazy. Instead, I feel - paradoxically enough - spiritually fed. Thanks again, and I'm looking forward to checking out your new blog!Invictus Pilgrimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15961213460164925021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144399754818696603.post-22744778534137120762010-12-08T11:28:48.527-07:002010-12-08T11:28:48.527-07:00Thanks for your embellishments, MoHoHawaii.
You...Thanks for your embellishments, MoHoHawaii. <br /><br />Your comments have reminded of a sermon I once heard preached years ago by a Methodist minister whom I thought a lot of. The title of the sermon, as I recall, was "Living Without God Before God." The gist of his thoughts were much along the lines you have expressed, viz., that we should stop worrying about pleasing (and running to)God all the time, like a dutiful (and co-depenndent) child, but instead just get out there and serve people and live good lives. In other words, "men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness." (D&C 58:27)Invictus Pilgrimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15961213460164925021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144399754818696603.post-40932590640238513862010-12-08T11:23:16.018-07:002010-12-08T11:23:16.018-07:00I actually just had a conversation (quite a heated...I actually just had a conversation (quite a heated one) on this subject just last night with a missionary who had recently gone home from serving in my area. The way you put this makes such a deep sound argument. Mormon culture is to follow the handbooks and Sunday school answers like lemmings right off a cliff if that's "God's will". I feel like I've jumped off the cliff so many times and I'm sick of it. I think that often "promptings" by the Holy Ghost are manufactured based on our own insecurities about what we *must* be doing wrong and so we have a *revelation* that we need to do something else that's illogical and difficult. I completely agree that a more deliberate and reasonable manner of living would be not only more fulfilling to many members, but also more in harmony with the gospel principle of agency and personal responsibility. <br /><br />Excellent post!Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06916052656250237183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144399754818696603.post-47052269599546415722010-12-08T11:09:19.461-07:002010-12-08T11:09:19.461-07:00Let me just add a quick follow up to my previous c...Let me just add a quick follow up to my previous comment. Accepting that the world is random and unpredictable doesn't make life is meaningless, as is often argued. For me, meaning doesn't come from the outside. Meaning is found <i>within</i> us. For example, if I have a random accident that injures me, I can accept that I just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Where I find meaning is in my appreciation of the beauty of existence and in my relationships with other people. In other words, it is possible to reject the idea that God micromanages every detail and at the same time find great meaning and richness in life.<br /><br />Wanting more than this is greedy and self-centered, IMHO. :- )MoHoHawaiihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15086670779804942122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144399754818696603.post-71036386427182078882010-12-08T10:26:27.312-07:002010-12-08T10:26:27.312-07:00Apronkid - Also, as always, appreciated your comme...Apronkid - Also, as always, appreciated your comments. It's helpful to me to get feedback such as yours, because it tells me that I may not be crazy after all, that others had experienced something very similar to what I have experienced.Invictus Pilgrimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15961213460164925021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144399754818696603.post-28129967187051263982010-12-08T10:15:12.884-07:002010-12-08T10:15:12.884-07:00Libellule - Thanks as always for your kind words a...Libellule - Thanks as always for your kind words and support!<br /><br />Ned - I like what you said, particularly about being blessed for questioning as well as "obedience".<br /><br />MoHoHawii - Wow! You've given me a lot more to think about. I may be mistaken, but I see another message between the lines about how theodicy and the butterfly effect applies in very real terms to aspects of my current situation. I appreciate you bringing these concepts to my attention. I also appreciate you sharing your thoughts (some would say "testimony") about finding beauty (and meaning) in randomness. (Libellule - any thoughts on this? :)) Again, thanks for your insightful and challenging yet comforting thoughts.<br /><br />Miguel - I always enjoy your comments as well. I particularly liked your phrase "those who suffer are not following the gospel." Such an insidious mode of thinking(!), no doubt inherited from our Calvinist forefathers. But there is no question that this way of thinking is alive and well in the church.<br /><br />Thanks, as always, for your support. I'm looking forward to meeting you one of these days!Invictus Pilgrimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15961213460164925021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144399754818696603.post-25732162541395615082010-12-08T09:37:05.674-07:002010-12-08T09:37:05.674-07:00Wouldn't life be more simple if we just had a ...Wouldn't life be more simple if we just had a reset button somewhere? But hey, that's just life, it is complex, crazy, confusing and sometimes even fun and exciting. <br /><br />In the LDS culture (not gospel) it is so important to show that all is well and put on a good front no matter how bad our lives may be or how badly we're doing because those who suffer are not following the gospel so we're taught at a very young age what to say, how to act and how to always put on that happy face. I always wondered how could I possibly be going through so much pain and misery yet the rest of my ward were so happy, what was I doing wrong? Turns out we were all on the same boat of life and being humans being challenged, maybe some happiness and misery, yet putting our happy masks every Sunday... interesting concept.<br /><br />Making changes and corrections to a lifetime spent in ACT 1 is not the easiest thing and while it will be painful in many aspects it is not impossible but I think it is something extraordinary when we stop asking why would God do that to us and instead ask: What have I done?!?! Way to take the bull by the horns!<br />Hugs,MiguelPublic Lonelinesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11212960226511408147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144399754818696603.post-15063243005124791812010-12-08T09:30:52.946-07:002010-12-08T09:30:52.946-07:00Another very powerful essay. Wow!
This post reson...Another very powerful essay. Wow!<br /><br />This post resonated with me. Like a lot of people in situations like you describe, I ended up reevaluating my beliefs. For me resolving the paradox of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodicy" rel="nofollow">theodicy</a> meant admitting the existence of natural <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory" rel="nofollow">chaos</a>. In a chaotic system, a small change in initial conditions can have a big effect in the system's outcome. (This is also known as the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect" rel="nofollow">butterfly effect</a>.) Chaotic systems are unpredictable. The atmospheric dynamics that influence weather, for example, are known to be chaotic. Predicting hurricanes and tornadoes a year in advance isn't feasible for us or, I expect, for a supreme being.<br /><br />I take comfort in the randomness of the world. The world isn't out to get me. It isn't my enemy. The forces of evil aren't conspiring against me. Things don't happen "for a reason." Instead, I'm part of a larger whole, and it's up to me to make prudent decisions. The outcomes of my decisions aren't assured. I might get hired for that job, or maybe not. It might even depend on what the person who interviewed me had for breakfast that day. As a result, I do the best I can given the knowledge that I don't control every aspect of the system. <br /><br />The randomness and complexity of existence have a kind of inherent beauty. (The Himalayas are majestic because of their roughness and irregularity, not in spite of it.) I am grateful to be here in this beautiful, chaotic existence.MoHoHawaiihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15086670779804942122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144399754818696603.post-13804380089498116682010-12-08T09:29:12.582-07:002010-12-08T09:29:12.582-07:00Vic, thank you for continuing to share your journe...Vic, thank you for continuing to share your journey and hard-won insights. <br /><br />What you've written today is affirming of my unorthodox testimony that the church itself is also subject to the refiner's fire, and often we (members and cultural Mormons) are blessed as much or more by our questioning than by obedience.<br /><br />I agree with Libellule that your work here may have a future in print, and perhaps in an ebook, too.Nedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05938186985738546670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144399754818696603.post-7357274329772140572010-12-08T07:17:46.867-07:002010-12-08T07:17:46.867-07:00The "So What's the Point?" section o...The "So What's the Point?" section of this post is right on the money. I don't know when it was, but one day something started to really bother me about the Mormon belief system. I could rant about it for days and I wouldn't have been able to pinpoint it and describe it as well as you have in this post. As Libellule said above, you hit the nail on the head, and it certainly does resonate with me!Elliothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12267445399650498944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144399754818696603.post-36782352200131890562010-12-08T05:33:03.994-07:002010-12-08T05:33:03.994-07:00How you have pinpointed the malaise behind conform...How you have pinpointed the malaise behind conformity in its many faces, i.e., with the Mormon church, in society, with one's dreams or sexuality, financial hangups etc. <br /><br />I honestly, and would like to underline the urgency in which I believe that you should SERIOUSLY look into publishing your narrative and thoughts. You have so much to share and you state it so clearly and with such great insight. It hits the nail on the head and resonates with many across borders, thus breaking down those borders.<br /><br />I support you Invictus ... may you always see your Life Quest as one of a Pilgrim ... you will always go far.Libellulehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07633236721899345816noreply@blogger.com