Monday, May 9, 2011

Mormon Beards – Exploring the Issues: The Challenge


“So I found out a friend from my freshman ward is doing the "I'm in the closet and I mess around with guys but I'm not gay and I plan on marrying a girl in the temple" thing. I feel really bad for him. Not much I can do, but it's sad … That makes 8 gay guys from that ward.” – Recent comment on MoHo Facebook Forum

“[G]ay men who court and marry straight women have privilege, power and information their wives lack. Gay men who court and marry straight women might have been deceived and victimized by the church, but they subsequently deceive and victimize their wives, and they can and should stop.” ~ Holly Welker

Despite the title and the lead photograph, this post is not about facial hair.  It is about gay Mormons men who have married, or perhaps plan or hope to marry, a woman.  More to the point, it is ultimately about the women in such marriages:  the “beards” of their gay Mormon husbands (in that they are used as a spouse to conceal the husband’s sexual orientation).
 
I was challenged to write about this topic by a commenter who participated in a long string of comments in response to an essay I published here on Main Street Plaza called “Reflections on ‘An Overwhelming Emptiness’.  The MSP essay (which I had also published on my own blog) consisted of a review of and commentary on comments left on my blog in response to a couple of posts about Mormon mixed-orientation marriages (MoMoMs).

The challenge was framed by the following comments by Holly Welker:

“Anyone looking at the images [on your blog] would think that a straight woman/gay man [Mo]MoM is entirely about the man in it – and from every gay male MoMoM blog I’ve read, that would be a reasonable inference. What could you do to bring more attention to the woman in a/your marriage? Could you have images of women – beautiful, broken, defiant, angry, weeping? Could you write posts with titles like ‘Remember: You’re marrying a WOMAN, not an Idea’ and ‘What’s Going to Happen to Your Wife When it All Falls Apart’? …

“[Y]our marriage is not about only you, and I am suggesting that it might be a good idea to demonstrate in your writing and on your blog more awareness, concern and compassion for what your decisions have cost your wife, because by doing so, you can get single gay men on the verge of repeating your mistake to factor in more accurately and appropriately to their decision what that decision will cost any woman they might marry, and I would hope most devoutly that they would actually care about that.”

I had several knee-jerk reactions to what Holly wrote.  My initial reaction was that my blog is written (1) by a gay man, (2) about gay men, (3) to gay men; it is not written by, about or for women.  I also frankly resented what to me was the patronizing insinuation that I needed to demonstrate on my blog more “awareness, concern and compassion” for what my “decisions” had “cost” my wife.  Furthermore, I am not a woman, and could not, even if I chose to, purport to express a woman’s feelings, let alone my own wife’s feelings.

For these and other reasons, I extended an invitation to Holly to write a guest post for my blog that would “bring more attention to the woman in a [MoMoM]” and achieve the other goals she described.  She declined to do so, however, referring me instead to an article she wrote for Sunstone on the subject (to which I will refer in later posts).

In the weeks since that post on MSP, I have thought about Holly’s challenge and about some of the issues raised by commenters to the MSP post.  I decided I would try to put together a series of posts that address these issues – albeit probably in a manner different than Holly (or any other woman) would have.  This is the first of these posts.  I anticipate that there will be at least an additional four, perhaps more, depending on comments received to this and subsequent posts.  I am hopeful that these essays will generate a lot of discussion on a subject that desperately needs to be discussed openly.



What Did You Know and When Did You Know It?

This question, a paraphrase of a famous question posed by Senator Howard Baker during the Watergate hearings, is about as good a place as any to start.

In one of her first comments to my MSP post, Holly wrote:

“[However,] a major concern in all of this remains the timing of gay men’s deep concern about the welfare of the women they marry. I wish it happened sooner – as in, before courtship. I can’t help feeling that so many MoMoM’s happen because the person with the incompatible orientation doesn’t think through the anguish they’ll be creating for a partner who is deeply in love with a spouse who can’t reciprocate.

She was responding to the following comment I had made:  “Every gay man I have met, either in person or online, is a “real man” (with reference to [a] term [used by another commenter – see below]) who has expressed deep concern for the welfare of his wife, even in the cases where the wife has initiated divorce proceedings. My reference to the term “real man” relates to a comment left by Seth – a heterosexual married Mormon: 

“[I]f your marriage is wrecked, divorce if you must. But don’t delude yourself into thinking that you’re just ‘setting [your wife] free’ to fly off and ‘find love.’ For a lot of single moms out there, there is no second shot, and no one else waiting out there. Sure, she may have been miserable WITH you. But that doesn’t automatically mean she’ll be less miserable WITHOUT you.  A real man faces that fact, and takes accountability for it. No matter what his sexual preferences …” [emphasis added].

In a follow-up comment, Seth wrote:  “I don’t really think a gay guy has any better reason for divorcing his wife than your average straight guy who no longer finds his wife sexually attractive, or doesn’t love her, etc.” 

Well, besides the issues I had with Seth’s tone and choice of words, is there anyone else out there – especially in light of his follow-up comment – who thinks that Seth has little or no understanding of what it means to be gay or what it feels like to be in a deeply troubled marriage?

But enough about Seth. 

Let’s get back to the question:  For those guys out there with “beards”, what did you know about your sexuality and when did you know it?  And – the $64,000 question – when did (or have) you disclosed the fact that your gay to your wife?  For those gay guys out there who are considering “damning the torpedoes” and proceeding with a traditional Mormon marriage, in spite of the fact that you know or strongly suspect you are gay gay gay, when do you plan to tell your young lady about it?

I have to admit that my initial reaction to Holly’s comments, quoted several paragraphs above, could be characterized as irritation.  She certainly seemed to be saying (or implying) that young Mormon men should, prior to even courting a girl, (1) know their sexual orientation, (2) embrace that orientation enough to be able to take responsibility for it, (3) feel comfortable enough about that orientation to be able to come out to a girl, and (4) have resolved any conflicts between their sexual identity and LDS teachings concerning homosexuality, eternal marriage and the entire Plan of Salvation. 


I want to address each of these points in subsequent posts, as well as Holly’s statement that “so many MoMoM’s happen because the person with the incompatible orientation doesn’t think through the anguish they’ll be creating for a partner who is deeply in love with a spouse who can’t reciprocate.” 

Because I feel I should put some “skin in the game” and respond to Holly’s challenge, to the extent I am able, I will devote a couple of posts to my own experience and marriage (making it clear that I have always been very protective of my wife’s privacy and will continue to be so).  I will also examine the factors that have resulted and continue to result in MoMoMs, including addressing issues relating to female sexuality in the Church (relying heavily on comments left on the MSP post by Holly and Chanson).  I am hopeful as well that I will be able to include remarks by women who are married to gay men.

Though my initial reaction to the implied points listed above and to Holly’s comment (about thinking through the anguish created for a beard) was – again - one of irritation proceeding from a perceived lack of understanding on Holly’s part and the imposition by her of unrealistic expectations on young Mormon men, this reaction has been tempered somewhat by thought and time, and this will be reflected in subsequent points.

I do believe that Holly’s main point is valid and true:  As difficult and painful as MoMoMs are for gay men, they are likely to be equally, if not – ultimately – more, painful for the woman involved.  And more often than not, she is likely to be ignorant, going into the marriage, of her husband’s true orientation.  Gay Mormon men have to take responsibility for that ignorance.

As Holly wrote, “men have more agency and control in the matter of courtship” and they have “privilege, power and information their [future] wives lack.” As such, it is incumbent on young gay Mormon men – in no small part because they have the ability to do so now more than ever before – to come to grips with their sexuality prior to any kind of a marriage.  “Gay men who court and marry straight women might have been deceived and victimized by the church,” Holly concedes, “but they subsequently deceive and victimize their wives, and they can and should stop.”

I would alter Holly’s statement to say that gay Mormon men have [not might have] been indoctrinated, deceived and victimized by the Church – in a number of ways that I will discuss in subsequent posts. As to the rest of her statement, however, she is absolutely correct.  The “downstream” deception and victimization of women needs to stop.  And the moral responsibility of the LDS Church to do something about this situation can no longer be ignored.

Postscript:  This post was also published on Main Street Plaza and has generated a significant number of comments.  I encourage anyone who is interested to go there and read through these comments.

21 comments:

  1. I agree with several comments:

    1. Holly's: marriage should not be entered into lightly, in general. For any gay or lesbian who KNOWS, 100% that they are gay, then it is unethical to enter into marriage because of the dishonesty, lack of respect and equality.

    2. Seth's: to some extent I do agree that any marriage that ends requires rebuilding a life. However, I would agree that for both parties gay or lesbian and former spouse, that this requires a total rebuilding of identity afterwards due to the confusion as to what the marriage meant to both partners and how to move on as parents of children, as friends ...

    My concern about this topic is the danger of generalizing in order to argue a point. When this happens, essential nuances are overlooked for the sake of coming up with a "universal" argument. What I mean here is:

    1. Some gay or lesbian Mormons, or non-Mormons, may have been living completely excommunicated from them selves for their entire life to the point that their homosexuality was never fully identified to themselves or to their spouses. Because of this divorce from their true selves, they cannot be expected to KNOW for sure about their homosexuality. Because of the taboos, homosexuality is only now being discussed in schools on the East coast (I don't know about in Utah). I doubt that it is discussed in Mormon sacrament meeting or Sunday School, Priesthood what have you. The more silence that is encouraged, expectations are imposed on heterosexuality and the "path to happiness", the more dislocated identities will result leaving homosexuals completely disoriented and unsure of who they truly are.

    For many who live in the "shame" of homosexuality, testing out what they think may be true is impossible, psychologically impossible because this person inside of them has been trained to not exist and not to have the RIGHT to exist.

    My point is this: whoever is being "unfaithful" may not be consciously hurting the spouse due to the inability to recognize one's true sexual orientation as a result of the deeply ingrained shame and their dislocated identities.

    I think that a more constructive approach would be to turn our vision forward: how will the couple handle coming out of the closet, listening to each other and support each other as a human being, how can they be more open to helping each other through love to fulfill their true potential, even if this may mean divorce: respecting the other as an individual who deserves to align their life with their self, letting go of anger and accusations...

    I will come back to Holly's point and add again, for those who consciously make the decision to marry knowing 100% that they are homosexual, just to conform to religious or society pressures, without discussing this with their spouses: I would challenge them to reconsider marriage just to "cure" their homosexuality or to "follow" the plan of happiness imposed by the church. I somehow think that the deceit that you would feel, the inability to be your true self thus the inability to truly love others, would lead you to a path of sorrow that will never bring you happiness.

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  2. Libellule - Your comment is indeed rich, and I will be "mining" in it the days ahead. For now, let me say that you provide some stunning insights, and I particularly like the imagery of being "excommunicated" from oneself, as well as being "divorced." Again, I will return to your comments in the days ahead. Stay tuned!

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  3. First, in this passage you quote as coming from me

    “Every gay man I have met, either in person or online, is a “real man” (with reference to [a] term [used by another commenter – see below]) who has expressed deep concern for the welfare of his wife, even in the cases where the wife has initiated divorce proceedings.

    “[However,] a major concern in all of this remains the timing of gay men’s deep concern about the welfare of the women they marry. I wish it happened sooner – as in, before courtship. I can’t help feeling that so many MoMoM’s happen because the person with the incompatible orientation doesn’t think through the anguish they’ll be creating for a partner who is deeply in love with a spouse who can’t reciprocate.


    the first paragraph is actually a statement from you that I am quoting, and I would like you to make that clear.

    My initial reaction was that my blog is written (1) by a gay man, (2) about gay men, (3) to gay men; it is not written by, about or for women. I also frankly resented what to me was the patronizing insinuation that I needed to demonstrate on my blog more “awareness, concern and compassion” for what my “decisions” had “cost” my wife. Furthermore, I am not a woman, and could not, even if I chose to, purport to express a woman’s feelings, let alone my own wife’s feelings.

    But you could marry a straight woman without worrying too much about what her feelings might be about ending up with a gay husband who doesn't really desire her and can't stay faithful to her?

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  4. My initial comment was too long--so I'm leaving it in two parts.

    I have to admit that my initial reaction to Holly’s comments, quoted several paragraphs above, could be characterized as irritation. She certainly seemed to be saying (or implying) that young Mormon men should, prior to even courting a girl, (1) know their sexual orientation, (2) embrace that orientation enough to be able to take responsibility for it, (3) feel comfortable enough about that orientation to be able to come out to a girl, and (4) have resolved any conflicts between their sexual identity and LDS teachings concerning homosexuality, eternal marriage and the entire Plan of Salvation.

    This is not a fair characterization of my position. In the Sunstone essay you refer to, I write:

    I know it can take a while to figure out one’s sexual identity, and that people who eschew sexual behavior during their teens only to marry in their early twenties might not have a firm handle on their sexual orientation. I’ve known both women and men who figure out after a decade or two of heterosexual marriage that maybe they’re not straight after all. I know from watching friends go through it that it’s profoundly painful. I also accept that some people are bisexual, and some spouses don’t want or require monogamy.

    But I also think from observing various marriages and divorces that there’s something different happening when men who know ahead of time that they are gay marry women they know are straight, particularly in Mormondom. I submit that patriarchy endows men with a sense of entitlement—-witness Christensen’s resentment that marrying women and fathering children in a traditional family with a mother and father is still the “exclusive territory of straight men”—-that blinds them to the real cost of their actions. Schow quotes a recently divorced gay man who states that “I think a lot of gay men contemplating heterosexual marriage underestimate the impact that their actions have on their future spouse.”9 Whereas women are trained, through doctrines like the new and everlasting covenant, to accept, however grudgingly, that they will not have the exclusive regard or affection of their husbands, that indeed their feelings about their marriage are of secondary importance to the patriarch’s wielding of authority.


    What I am actually saying is that Mormon men who know they are gay prior to marriage should be real christians and put the happiness of any woman they might consider courting above their own. They should work out their ambivalence about the plan of salvation without threatening the happiness and well-being of another.

    Is that an unreasonable position?

    Finally, in response to your statements about your irritation at the patronizing nature of my comments to you--well, consider the contempt and misogyny in the basic disregard many gay Mormon men exhibit for their wives' situations. Would you want one of your daughters to end up with a husband who couldn't really love her, who was marrying her partly as a way to preserve his own respectability and righteousness?

    If someone really has to point out to you that you might not want someone to do to your daughter what you've done to someone else's, it's sometimes hard to do it without seeming patronizing.

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  5. p.s. I will add, and should have said upfront, that I'm grateful and pleased that you're tackling this topic, and appreciate the clarity and courage you're showing as you do it.

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  6. I think it's important to note that a lot of individuals who are happy in their mixed orientation marriages are not going to be reading, or commenting on this blog or any of the moho blogs.

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  7. @Holly - You are quite right about the quote. I apologize for that and have corrected it.

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  8. @Anonymous - I am curious as to the purpose of your comment, because it seems to me it can be read in several ways. Can you elaborate?

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  9. I kind of agree with Anonymous, Invictus. I stopped following this blog a long time ago, not because your points aren't valid or anything like that (because they are -- your blog is a great source to many, I'm sure) But it seems to justify and advocate for paths of life we (happily married gay men) haven't chosen for ourselves, or don't want to choose for ourselves down the road. The only reason I came across this post, was because I actually thought it had to do with facial hair. :) Again, Pilgrim I mean no disrespect, honestly.

    I would also like to say that I resent the generalization that all straight women married to gay men are "beards." I don't consider my wife a "beard" in the least. Before we ever dated I disclosed my attractions to my wife as well as my desire to stay close to the Gospel. Before getting engaged, and getting married we had deep discussions as to what this all meant-- that the marriage wasn't going to "fix" me, I would always be attracted to men, and most importantly, that i loved her and wanted her to be at my side throughout the eternities as my companion, my queen. So she knew full well what she was entering in to. I made no attempts to "deceive" her.

    Anyway. I thank you Invictus, for the perspectives you bring to the entire Gay/Mormon/Moho/SSA/MOM discussion. :)

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  10. Lucky Jake - If the message doesn't resonate, it doesn't resonate. I have no problem with that at all. I am very well aware of the fact that there are gay men in MoMoMs that have worked and are working for them. I have never criticized, belittle or otherwise denigrated such men or such marriages.

    I also knew that these posts would probably stir up some grumbling from "your side of the fence," i.e., from gay men in happy stable MoMoMs. In short, I knew I was setting myself up to catch it from both sides. However, I felt the issue is important enough to bring it up in a forum such as this.

    The bottom line is that this upcoming series of posts is not directed toward men such as yourself, whose marriage is working, or men such as me, whose marriage ultimately didn't work. These posts are directed toward young gay Mormon men who are not, for various reasons, fully considering the issues involved in getting married to a woman.

    That said, I appreciate you sharing the comments in your second paragraph. I understand your resentment, and I genuinely appreciate you sharing your experience (which is obviously commendable and, I suspect, unusual in its candor).

    In closing, the term "Mormon Beard" was meant to be provocative. :-) Provocation promotes reaction and discussion, which is the point of this exercise.

    Though I, too, have felt fingers being pointed, the whole purpose of this exercise is to educate and enlighten so that the upcoming generation of gay Mormon men can better deal with these issues than perhaps many in my generation.

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  11. Ok there's a lot here.
    Let me talk about Holly's comment that Mormon men are misogynistic and patriarchal. I completely agree. I've seen that even as a gay man, I treated my wife according to family customs and religious practices that were extremely patriarchal. The fact that you are gay doesn't make you all the sudden Mr. feminist or Mr. I'm going to treat my wife with total respect and equality. I wanted to have kids right away, wanted her to stay home. I expected her to clean while I was at work, cook dinner, etc. We didn't have kids right away and she worked, which I supported, but I didn't necessarily pick up the slack. The "perfect Mormon family" image, strict gender roles image was hard to break for me. I did help clean and cook but not to an equal degree as my wife. The fact that I'm gay doesn't undo these societal values and norms I've been instilled with. And not every Mormon is like that, and in fact there is some change even from the leadership, but in my family background, those attitudes were instilled in me. Even if I outwardly disagreed, it takes a lot of work to fully change your attitudes beliefs and behaviors. I thought I'd be more enlightened because I'm gay and educated, and I suppose I'm more self conscious, but it takes some unlearning to do.
    So do these patriarchal attitudes extend to the feeling I should get married? Yes. But did they affect the way I went into proposing etc? I think at least from personal experience, this is a harder case to make in some ways. I disclosed to my wife that I was attracted to men before we got engaged. However, we had been dating for almost a year,so obviously she had developed feelings for me. But still, I did give her a choice. I was completely willing to walk away, and she chose not to. While I do not believe disclosure is enough, I don't think you can blame the man for this completely. Did I know I was gay? I didn't. Because Evergreen, etc. had whitewashed that to tell me I had same-sex attraction, it made it seem like I could overcome my attractions to get married. So if I had known what it meant to be gay and married to a woman, I wouldn't have done it. Instead, I believed my attractions to her would increase over time, I could always do "reparative therapy" or counseling, that in some way I could work it out.
    Coming back though, these same patriarchal, misogynisitic attitudes did crop up getting divorced. I think I did fairly well, but I could have done better. The tension between reality and belief became wider and wider with time. As soon as I actually understood the extent to which I had been indoctrinated, that it wasn't true that I could develop "Opposite Sex attratcion" and diminish my "SSA" I told her. Almost immediately. I told her, I'm gay. I thought this could change. I thought I'd develop attractions to you. I thought that it would get better over time. It hasn't and it won't. I don't know what to do.
    At that point, all I could do was be honest. I didn't discuss my homosexuality until more than 3 years after initial disclosure. I wasn't honest with her about sex. I was a hard thing to be that honest, knowing it might end our relationship.

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  12. (Continued)
    I'll leave that there for now, and talk a a bit about how these attitudes affected both of us in relation to our families.
    Her family was great about it. Enough said. They understood. They were supportive of our decision.
    The way my family treated this all as you can imagine been very patriarchal. They told me my wife would just be there for me, how dare I divorce her. So she had to deal with this feeling like if she were a good wife, she'd just stay with me no matter what. And I had to deal with this feeling like if I were a good husband, I'd make it work no matter what. Finally, she got fed up with it. She said I'm here too you know. Why doesn't anyone think about me? She wrote them and said you know what, I'm divorcing him. Stop blaming Alex cause it doesn't matter what he thinks at this point.
    So I internalized some of that and thought, well if she loved me she’d stay with me wouldn’t she? Don’t I have a responsibility to make it work? It’s hard to overcome those societal pressures those beliefs etc. That’s what I see as being the real problem in dealing with the divorce.
    I'll have more to say later. But I wanted to get a little personal experience in.

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  13. I sat yesterday in Sacrament meeting (I went with my mother since it was mother's day) and heard talk after talk about strict gender roles, perfection in motherhood, etc. I couldn't wait to leave. I find these talks painful for all those women who don't fit the mold, or feel their failures all too clearly. I find them painful because they remind me of all of my own failures when life and choices are looked at from the Mormon view.

    My biggest failure as a man was not telling my ex-wife I was attracted to men. I will regret it always. I feel much worse about that than anything else I did or did not do in my life. It was a selfish and naive choice on my part.

    Women deserve more, and perhaps my generation of 40 somethings in the church weren't prepared to give it to them. I hope, in the USA, that we are at least in an environment where young men who are gay can see a better path for themselves, and will have the courage to take it.

    PS... Beards would be a great topic

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  14. In reading Holly’s response, I get the impression that she somehow believes that this blog acts as an encouragement for gay men to marry women in order to fulfill religious requirements. While there have certainly been writers who have left comments supporting this perspective, I believe that the belief by Invictus and the overwhelming majority of posters here is that marriage by a gay man for those reasons is incredibly harmful.

    Holly, your argument that this is something I would not recommend for my daughter is one that I’ve used several times. I agree completely.

    So why did I do something else? For my situation, I ended up marrying without telling my future wife that I struggled with attractions to men. Growing up, it was incredibly important for me to be “good.” And as I had learned from my church leaders, being gay was the polar opposite of “good.” I was unable to admit it to anyone. I was completely isolated in my angst. I thought that if I did everything that was asked of me, it would go away.

    My wife and I had been friends since junior high and all through high school, so she knew me better than anyone else, but I never shared this with her. Part of me has beat myself up for years, feeling that I had misrepresented myself. As time has passed, I have come to realize that I acted upon the best information I had at the time.

    Holly asks if we gave no regard to the feeling of our future wives when it came to being involved in a mixed-orientation marriage. Again, from my current perspective in life, I don’t disagree with that. However, I thought that I could work through and overcome my feelings. This was taught to me in multiple different formats. In recent conference talks, the pressure that church leadership applied to single men to get married was all couched in terms that if one is faithful in living the commandments of the Lord, all challenges can be overcome to create a celestial, eternal marriage. While they didn’t say this directly to “gay” single males, the message is still received the same by them.

    I don’t think I had any more privilege or power than my future wife had, but I confess I had information that my future wife lacked. And interestingly, I think Holly has insight and information that I certainly lacked when I got married. Those feelings don’t go away and generally become stronger as time progresses. I think that most, if not all gay men who marry women act out a deep desire to do what is asked of them by God. It is from painful experience that people begin to learn that this is likely not what God wants.

    Invictus, I agree with your ending comments that the LDS Church has a moral responsibility to do something about this situation. I don’t think they have the courage to do it, but it needs to be done.

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  15. @Utahhiker801 - Thanks for your comments. I particularly liked your observation of Holly having insight and information that you lacked when you got married. I would agree. But, as you said, you acted on the best information you had at the time. It is a dangerous game when we apply the morality of today to the actions of yesterday.

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  16. It seems to me straight women who've been "deceived and victimized" (by the gay men who marry them) have reason to complain if they've actively opposed the repressive system that encourages gay men to be straight. Those who've not fought such a heinous system are, at least to some degree, complicit in it. Silence equals tacit approval, and as sad as it is, they suffer the consequences too. The evil in the system affects everyone. How often have these women spoken out against inequality? How many letters have they written to their elders, bishops (whomever) arguing for full acceptance of gays, including the right to marry? A woman may be "ignorant, going into the marriage, of her husband's true orientation," and I agree it's a gay man's responsibility to tell her, but at the same time ignorance does not equal innocence. If they're not, at the very least, speaking out against the injustices gays suffer, they're tacitly supporting a system that devalues homosexuals and encourages gay men to marry straight women.

    - Wes

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  17. I'm a single, mormon gay guy who is of marrying age. I would like to marry a woman some day. I plan on telling the girl about my sexuality when we both realize that the relationship might go somewhere (way before engagement). It is in both of our interest for me to be absolutely honest and candid about my attractions. I wouldn't want to marry someone who isn't okay with the way I am, and it's completely unfair for the girl to comit to something without all the information. I would hold nothing back because I want no secrets and don't want things to come up later in marriage that may lead to divorce. I would never blaim a girl for discontinuing a relationship after finding out I'm gay. I hope, someday, that I will find someone who will feel good about continuing the relationship as a mixed orientation couple. I hope I will feel attracted to them in everyway. That's asking a lot, and I don't know if it will ever happen, but I will continue to work towards that end by staying temple worthy and following the spirit's guidance... I hope it leads me to marriage, if not, it will lead me to something good. I am not willing to give up yet.

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  18. I'm the one who said, "I think it's important to note that a lot of individuals who are happy in their mixed orientation marriages are not going to be reading, or commenting on this blog or any of the moho blogs"

    I'm sure you realize that your blog is often very critical of the church, of mixed orientation marriages and has a certain rebellious feeling to it. Men who have chosen the path you often critisize probably don't want to sit around reading about how ignorant or selfish they are being. Or they just don't relate, so they probably don't spend the time to read or comment.

    I feel those who read your blog, or contribute the most, probably do so because they relate to your feelings and opinions. (or because they want to look at the sexual images) I just hope readers of this blog, and other moho blogs don't feel like the thoughts expressed are representative of all, or even most of gay LDS men. I know you've never claimed to speak for all LDS gay men, but in discussions like this one, it is easy to feel like their is only one side... the one emotionally expressed.

    I'll be honest... I read your thoughts so that I can avoid the situation you find yourself in and sometimes I enjoy the controversy and questions you raise. There are many times I feel the spirit leave when you critisize the church or glorify activities I feel are sinful. The images alone are enough to repel those trying to stay away from the slipery slope.

    I just hope impressionable readers don't get trapped in thinking that the thoughts of the moho blogosphere is represntative of what's out there. I'm not being clear, I hope other's can understand what I'm trying to say.

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  19. @Anonymous #1 - I understand where you are coming from. I commend your commitment to be honest and forthright with any woman with whom you may become romantically involved. I encourage you to also be honest with yourself as well and to continue to educate yourself about the risks inherent in a mixed-orientation marriage so that, if you ever reach the point of marriage, you can both go into it with eyes wide open.

    Anonymous #2: I'm glad you clarified your earlier comment.

    I do realize that my blog is perceived by some to be "very critical of the church" and "very critical ... of mixed orientation marriages." I'm not going to comment on the former because I know it is an exercise in futility.

    As to being very critical of mixed orientation marriages, I have never criticized or passed judgment on anyone else's mixed orientation marriage. I have repeatedly stated that each situation is different. But what I have done is provide opportunities for men who are struggling in MOMs to express and explore their feelings through the instrumentality of this blog. I have also made it pretty clear that I think that it is a mistake for a young gay Mormon man today to enter into a MOM. Regardless of the "success" stories, the odds are overwhelmingly against such success.

    Though I have never criticized, and never would presume to criticize, others' MOMs, I am fully aware that some gay men in "successful" MOMs become defensive about their situation. This reaction has much more to do with where they are at than with anything that is said on this blog.

    As to my blog having a "rebellious" feeling, well, I'm not going to comment on that, except to say that it is a code word used by certain Mormons to attack something they view as threatening.

    The whole purpose of blogs, and certainly of my blog, is to express personal views, feelings and opinions. My blog has always been extremely (some might say dangerously) personal. I have never purported to express views of or to speak for anyone but myself. As I have often said, if what I write resonates with someone, great; if not, great. I am not a polemicist. And I think most reasonable people are able to form their own views about what is or is not "representative" of gay LDS men. I have never purported to be "representative" of anyone but myself.

    As to your concluding comments, I will simply point out, for the benefit of "impressionable readers" who may get "trapped" that one of the purposes of this blog is to provide alternative points of view that will not necessarily be what will be heard in sacrament or priesthood meeting or Sunday School. It is pretty much only through blogs such as this one that such points of view can be expressed and shared. And to return to an earlier point, such points of view are indeed, contrary to your statement, "representative of what's out there." They may not be representative of your point of view, but they are representative, to one degree or another, of many gay LDS men.

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  20. I would concur that it is the freedom of speech and thought that enables people to encounter what is out there: and what is out there is DIVERSE and is not uniform.

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  21. Thanks for starting this series, IP. It's very thought-provoking and I'm sure it will achieve your aims of getting the young SGA LDS guys to think harder before they get married.

    Seth hits a raw nerve with his "real man" comment. I have worked a great deal though a pile of guilt because after 25 years of faithful marriage, I gave into my SGA. I loved my wife, liked sex with her and really got along on many levels. Yet I left her for another man.

    Libellule makes an excellent point of a more constructive approach which I regret not trying - work together in coming out of the closet. Granted I felt that with her temperment and background that approach would not have been successful but I still wonder "What if...?"

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