Thursday, April 7, 2011

What About Gay Sex?


Since starting my blog, I have occasionally received an e-mail or message that concerns gay sex.  Not that anyone was hitting on me.  And it’s not like guys were asking questions about technique or anything like that (as if I could have helped them).  Most of the questions revolved around the issue of straight sex vs. gay sex, and what effect, if any, having gay sex has had on “knowing” (sort of in the sense of “theory” vs. “practice”) whether or not one is gay.

I frankly wasn’t able to be of much help here either, so I finally decided the time had come to write a post about this and to solicit opinions and experiences from the great “out there.”

I think the first e-mail I received was from a guy who was married, but who was pretty sure he was gay.  Other than a bit of “fooling around,” he’d never had any sort of sex with a guy.  He said he thought he was coming along pretty good in terms of “dealing” with his same-sex attraction, but then he read a comment on a blog that kind of shook him up.

The comment was written by MoHoHawaii, a gay man who has been out 20+ years, who comes from a Mormon background, who was married when he was young and who became the father of a couple of children.  He was responding to a post about hetero-sex vs. gay sex, and this is what he wrote

“I have been on both sides of this... heterosexually married (with kids) and in a monogamous gay relationship of long duration.  My experience [with heterosexual sex was that] it was workable; we had kids; it didn't gross anyone out; it wasn't a caricature of intimacy; sometimes it was even tender.  When I first had homosex, [however,] it was like being transported to another plane of existence. The synapses in my brain went into overdrive. It was electric. The experience was unbelievably potent. I cried afterwards from happiness. It was truly making love for the first time … I'm not kidding: having the kind of sex you're wired for is a completely different experience from the other kind of sex.”  

After quoting MoHoHawaii, my correspondent then wrote:  “When I read his comment, it was like something shifted deep inside of me.  Particularly when I read the phrase, ‘the kind of sex you're wired for.’  I somehow knew I will never be the same after reading this.  This perhaps sounds dramatic, but I’m serious.  I thought I could, you know, come to terms with my SSA [same-sex attraction], just accept that I’m gay, but never act on that.  I want to stay married and everything. 

“But those words, ‘the kind of sex you're wired for,’ resonated within me.  They helped me to see and accept that I am wired for gay sex, not just attraction to men.  The sex is also part of who I was wired to be.  I’m afraid those words both opened up an aspect of my sexual identity that I hadn't previously fully seen or acknowledged, and they also ignited a spark of something, and I'm not sure where it will lead.


I never heard from this guy again.  If he reads this, I hope he will comment or write back to me so that I can learn what’s happened in his life since then.

Then there was the guy who wrote the following to me:  “I think an important thing that is missing from these discussions of mixed-orientation marriages and of these guys making a decision as to what to do is this:  Have they ever actually had sex with a guy?  Real sex?  Cause I have to tell you, from my own perspective, having sex with a guy was unlike anything I had ever had with my wife.  It was like I was being reborn, like I was finally experiencing what sex was supposed to feel like – fulfilling, enabling, energizing, uplifting, and, of course, stimulating. 

“I was reminded of that scene from “Latter Days” where Aaron and Christian had sex for the first time and how Christian commented that he couldn’t believe how long they’d been going at it.  That’s the way it was for me.  With my wife, sex was, well let’s face it, it was sex; but it became over time a duty that was best completed as quickly as possible.  Sex with a man, however, was pure bliss, and I would have been happy if it could have lasted all night.  I could never have gone back to straight sex; I now knew who I was and how I was intended to live.”

Well, at the time, I decided not to publish this comment.  But the recent posts about mixed-orientation marriages have made me change my mind.  I’ve decided it’s important to put these issues on the table.


In fact, it’s so important that I decided to cast my net further afield, so to speak and approach some of my gay friends for their input – on an anonymous basis of course.  One wrote back, “For me, the first time I had sex with a man, the thought that swam around in my head was, ‘This is what I've always wanted.’  And when sex is combined with the emotional attachment of love, it is a mind-blowing, comfortable, peaceful connection ... In Evergreen (yup, tried that one, too), they emphasize that one shouldn't compare sex with another man with sex with a woman because gay sex appeals to baser desires which should be overcome, and straight (married) sex - if a gay guy can get there - is much more noble and righteous act which should be revered as such.  Let's just say that argument didn't resonate with me.

This friend touched on something that was mentioned by my Gay Priesthood Leader, whom I’ve written about before, when he mentioned sex being “combined with the emotional attachment of love.”  My GPL pointed out that a lot of people tend to think of gay sex in terms of “hook-ups” or recreational sex and forget that there is such a thing as gay relational sex.  In fact, one guy wrote to me that, to him, “gay sex is really about intimacy, about who one genuinely feels intimate with.  I can enjoy being with a guy, just hugging him, holding him and kissing him, being intimate with him. I don’t need to necessarily have an orgasm; that’s the cherry on top, so to speak.”

This comment was reflected in something I ran across just the other day, on a website for GLBT Christians.  The author, Colin Blanchard, was writing about the parable of the Good Samaritan and how it speaks of the unconditional love of the Samaritan for the victim of the robber’s attack.  As an aside, he made the following point, which I think is germane to this discussion: 

Some of my friends have recently been to see the film Brokeback Mountain. They had heard that it was about cowboy sex. They were disappointed. But the film isn't really about sex. It's about the love of one man for another and their willingness to put their marriages at risk in pursuit of that love, among other things ... Being gay is not about whom one has sex with; it's about whom one loves. We should never lose sight of what is the most important aspect of our being. To some extent we can regulate who we have sex with but who we fall in love with seems to cross the barriers of race and creed and also sexual orientation, eluding our control [emphasis added].”


So, I know I’m kind of going out on a limb here, but I’d like to invite people to comment – anonymously (unless you feel strongly about identifying yourself) – on the issue of what having gay sex has meant to you, how it has affected your perception of yourself as a gay man, and how you generally feel/have felt about it. 

30 comments:

  1. Ok. I’m in.

    I vividly recall the first time I kissed my wife-to-be. We had been dating for a few kiss-less months. She thought I didn’t kiss because I lived on a high, spiritual, moral plane. She didn’t know (at the time) that my I-want-to-kiss-her hormones were not firing. The dating process for me was perfunctory – marriage was next on my plan-of-happiness list. (That and fend off my attraction to the guys.)

    I didn’t even kiss her when I proposed. (Didn’t she see the red flag???) Our first kiss was when I gave her an engagement ring one Easter Sunday morning. The kiss fell flat: no emotion, no excitement, and no visceral, sexual stirrings. Shouldn’t that be an autonomic reaction? No, not if you’re not wired that way. I never did get the big deal about kissing. After we married and she introduced her tongue to mine, I was appalled, and she knew it.

    Ok, contrast the pathos of that experience with my first guy kiss. Oh my heck! You don’t make that stuff up. The sensations fired everywhere; now I finally understood the big deal about kissing. It became the part of intimacy (that and cuddling) I enjoyed the most.

    My time is up before I can comment on sex but my experience was the same as with kissing. And I agree that, while it is a wonderful part of intimacy, the important point is that is exactly that – a part of the indescribable emotionally energizing/fulfilling enjoyment we call intimacy.

    Trey

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  2. I remember the first time that I really "made out" with a girl. It was in college. Late I know. When I became aroused I thought, "wow, I think I can do this".
    A year later when I was finishing a summer job and everyone was saying their goodbye to each other, one of the guys that I was kinda crushed on gave me a kiss, on the lips, in front of all of our friends. No one seemed to take notice and I acted like it was the most casual non-event ever. But... I was suddenly very dizzy, my knees got weak and my face got very hot. I had to duck out of sight and try to breathe. My heart was racing, I was shaking all over... and smiling. Oh, my god, now I get it. Now I understand what all those movies and plays and books are talking about. Love is more than something that "I think I can do". It is something that I can totally get lost in. All of those sticky sweet, cheesy notions of romance are actually real. I was suddenly a believer in love. I never kissed another girl.

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  3. Anonymous, that was exactly my reaction when I first fell in love with a guy. Suddenly, I completely understood what those love songs were all about.

    The second thought that hit me was, I can't believe I've lived this long and never before experienced this emotion and these feelings. Why were people trying to cheat me out of this? It was incredible.

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  4. As far as I can tell, the emotional, physical and spiritual responses of gay people with respect to members of the same sex are absolutely identical to those of straight people and people of the opposite sex. It takes a while for that to sink in if you've been raised LDS.

    Also, it's worth pointing out that one of the primary biological functions of sexuality is to assist in the creation of durable pair bonds. Sex is powerful glue that makes a couple "cleave" into "one flesh," as the Bible puts it. Sexual passion is a critical ingredient in marital bonds. People who enter into mixed-orientation marriages (especially from LDS backgrounds) sometimes discount the importance of this "spark." We think that sex is a baser and carnal aspect of ourselves. We as Mormons tend to trivialize the emotional aspects of sex and focus on "carnality" and lust. This is a mistake.

    Looking from the outside, it is hard to understand the loneliness that a gay person can feel in a mixed-orientation marriage (and the profound sense of rejection that the straight spouse can feel). This loneliness (or sense of rejection) is structural. It is inherent in the situation. It does not go away. It arises from the fact that we are wired to form pair bonds only with persons whose gender matches our sexual object choice (i.e., a person of the same sex if we are gay and the opposite sex if we are heterosexual).

    We can certainly form a loving relationship with a person of the nonpreferred gender, but it won't be a true pair bond. It will always be something else. The nesting instinct will be absent on one side. The spark, the glue, the whatever you want to call it.

    For example two same-sex, heterosexual missionary companions might share deep love and mutual understanding (this often happens), but they won't want to settle down with each other after their missions are over. There's just no nesting impulse in that case.

    On the other hand, when my boyfriend Tobi wraps his arms around me and lays his head on my chest, I am comforted in a way that just couldn't ever happen for me with a woman, regardless of the love and mutual sympathy I might share with her. The closeness I feel with Tobi is profound and even transcendent. It is secular, but it feels holy. When Trey and his husband say the word "we," you can feel the power of their bond. They are of one flesh in that special, recognizable, holy way.

    Home is not really "home" unless the person wrapping their arms around us at night is of the right gender. This is stupid and unfair, but it's very, very deeply wired in whatever it is that makes us human. Unfortunately, when it comes to nest building, gender matters. It matters a lot.

    This is why the issue of mixed-orientation marriage is so unbelievably difficult. It's a wall that can't be scaled. Staying together can require a Herculean level of compromise and accommodation. I think we fool ourselves (and lay a guilt trip on those who might be in a mixed-orientation marriage) to say that the situation is like any other marriage

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  5. I agree with what has been said. When I kissed a girl I had the feelings of OK this works and is part of my mask (before I came out) but when I kissed a man for the first time it felt like I was on cloud nine and the emptiness inside me was finally filled with this overwhelming feeling of joy. Life finally felt complete.

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  6. Well I'm a straight virgin so I don't have a ton to add, but I can attest to the incredible sensations and feelings that accompany the kind of physical intimacy I'm wired for (in my case, with an attractive woman). I would imagine sex with men, which seems in pretty much all its forms repulsive to me personally, would be a roughly comparable experience for a gay man as it would for a straight woman with a man or for me with an attractive woman. I'm unconvinced that gay sex is baser than straight sex.

    I appreciate the perspectives shared above.

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  7. I understand what has been said concerning being wired for gay sex. At one time I was deeply in love with the man I was dating at the time. I felt the connection to him, loved cuddling and being with him. Still there was something missing. In the back of my head I could not escape God, he knew that what I was doing was wrong. I either had to deny God or myself. I began to realize that love is much more than just sex. It is more than just caring for one person. I realized that the love I wanted meant having a family with a woman who I deeply cared about. It meant that I would need to change. To say the least denying God would be too painful, I have watched many do this. Most end up self medicating themselves into oblivion. I wasn't interested in that, it was easier to deny myself.

    The break up was just about the most painful thing I've ever experienced emotionally, it tore me apart inside. I had to ask God to heal my heart and take away the pain. In an instant I felt peace and warmth in my soul. The hurt and pain were swept away.

    I was reminded of an important fact by another blogger. He referred to Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac. That in order to know God we must be willing to sacrifice everything. As hard as it may seem, i had to be willing to sacrifice my relationship with another man and my desire to have that. We can go on and on about how we are wired a certain way, but in the end God still requires us to sacrifice everything to know him. This is the only way to find true peace and happiness in this life and the next.

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  8. Willing to sacrifice Everything works well if you are convinced that the "God" you are sacrificing for wants you to do it. It doesn't work too well when that is the definition of God that many of us no longer believe in.

    I don't drink. I don't use drugs. I don't play in the world of self-medicating or mind altering substances. I'm pretty stable and even keel, so to speak, but Gay is the way I am, and its the way I will be for at least the rest of this life.

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  9. @AirMan,

    To look at this situation from another angle: would you recommend whole-heartedly that your daughter marry a man who is homosexual in order for him to better know God? If you can’t recommend a certain behavior to your child, then I think it needs to be re-examined. Would God require that of her? Or of him?

    To commit a woman to a life where she would feel deeply for her husband in a way that he is incapable of reciprocating seems like a selfish way to know God better. Perhaps that’s not the sacrifice He is looking for.

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  10. I blogged about my take on Abraham's sacrifice awhile ago, although I have a much different take on that story than AirMan. Suffice it to say I would never do that to someone I love.

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  11. Of course, I like gay sex. But that's not the reason I left my wife of 20+ years - that had more to do with a desire for integrity, issues in our marriage and a relationship that had developed with my partner.

    But the gay sex has not made me feel gay. I and my partner really have little connection with or attraction to gay culture. I have had sex with scores of men as I was going through a 4 year period of hiding it from my wife and though gay sex is great, it's not so much more qualitatively wonderful than with my wife. But I am definitely more wired for sex with guys since I really couldn't imagine having sex with any other woman than my wife.

    Maybe I am the odd man out here and really am more bi than gay. Or I haven't come to terms with being gay. Or I just don't like the term gay.

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  12. My gay experience has been similar to that already written about. I was heterosexually married to a man. It did not work for me. I was trying to do everything "expected and required" of me" but it took me to the brink of suicide. I left because I wanted to stay alive.

    When I fell in love with a woman and subsequently had a full and loving relationship with her, I was stunned the first time she kissed me. It was akin to what MoHoHawaii recently shared, that of almost being struck with lightning, the electricity was so palpable. Her touch, being with her (in any and every way) brought more pleasure, more acceptance, more love, more caring, more nurturing, more passion, and more EVERYTHING than I EVER thought possible. Simply put, we filled each other's souls. She was everything to me.

    THAT is what "gay love" is about for me.

    Thank you, Invictus, for this post, and for giving us the opportunity to share out feelings.

    Love and respect, always. Duck

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  13. @airman. See my blog at thecrazymormon.blogspot.com for my take on Abraham's sacrifice

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  14. Thanks to all for your comments. MoHoHawaii, special thanks to you for the insight, clarity and depth which you have brought to this discussion.

    I strongly recommend that any who come to this page read Alex's blog post that he refers to in his comment and which he wrote in response to Airman's comment.

    My own response to Airman: First and foremost, Airman, I respect you for sharing something that is so obviously extremely personal and genuine. I also respect your beliefs as pertaining to what you have felt is right for you. But I disagree with the extension of what you felt was right for you, to others.

    You wrote, "We can go on and on about how we are wired a certain way, but in the end God still requires us to sacrifice everything to know him. This is the only way to find true peace and happiness in this life and the next."

    I first of all disagree, despite what Joseph Smith said on the subject, with the proposition that we are required to make Abraham's sacrifice. Abraham was required to make Abraham's sacrifice. Such a sacrifice was required at *his* hands to fulfill the measure of *his* creation. To use this typology as applicable to all of us frankly opens ourselves up to manipulation by those who dispense the obedience drug.

    I also strongly disagree with your view that God views gay love as wrong. Again, you are entitled to your own feelings about your own situation, and I am not commenting upon the authenticity of these feelings with respect to your own situation. I do disagree, however, with the application of your own personal feelings as applicable to others.

    I believe that we are put on this earth to fulfill the measure of our creation, just like Abraham was. I am not called to be a prophet (thank God). I am not called to sacrifice my child of promise. I am, however, called to live a life of integrity, which among other things implies being true to myself and who I am "wired" to be. This is what brings me peace, and it is through knowing myself that I know God, and visa versa.

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  15. Interesting stuff and thanks to everyone for sharing.

    I have never even gotten close to holding hands or kissing a guy, let alone having gay sex. No matter how exciting and enticing gay sex seems to me in the abstract (or in porn), whenever I think about gay sex specifically for me I have a hard time getting past feelings that I am a deviant or pervert for thinking I would enjoy it. Where are these feelings coming from and is there a way to get past them? Have others felt this way?

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  16. Mohohawaii said:
    "On the other hand, when my boyfriend wraps his arms around me and lays his head on my chest, I am comforted in a way that just couldn't ever happen for me with a woman, regardless of the love and mutual sympathy I might share with her. The closeness I feel with Tobi is profound and even transcendent. It is secular, but it feels holy. When Trey and his husband say the word "we," you can feel the power of their bond. They are of one flesh in that special, recognizable, holy way."

    Nothing I could ever comment on would make as much or more sense to me and he nailed it!
    Hugs,Miguel

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  17. To those who believe that I am recommending that you should get married if gay, I'm not! If one is to pursue that path of marriage to a woman like myself, then I do believe that it is only fair to be open and honest about everything before marriage.

    As for the rest I am not trying to guilt anyone, however God does require all of us to give up our sins and ungodly desires. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. I do not judge or condemn but merely point to Christ. No unclean thing can enter the house of God. I still have a long way to go, but I feel peace that I am on the path leading back to Christ.

    Getting a divorce is fine so that your wife can find happiness and have the life she deserves. I don't agree that one should engage in any sexual activities outside of marriage with the opposite sex. I fell under this condemnation myself. You may not be able to change the attraction factor, however that does not give me or anyone else the permission to engage in the behavior. When we engage in the behavior then we sin. Then we need the power of the atonement to return to Christ.

    If you do not believe in God or Christ then it doesn't matter what I say. For in your eyes there is no sin, because without God there is no Satan, there is no right and wrong. However for me I know God lives and that Christ took upon the sins of the world so that if we repent we can return to God.

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  18. I have to hand it to you Vic, your's is the best moho blog around, at least that I have found in almost 5 years of moho surfing.

    Just one comment from a 60+er.

    April is the cruelest month, mixing memory with desire. The actual hormones may fizzle, not as hard, not as often, but the memory and desire remain. “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master, that’s all.”

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  19. @Santorio - Thanks so much for your kind words about my blog. This blog has certainly evolved, and writing about my experiences and learning from others has been a tremendous help to me since starting my journey.

    @AirMan - I hope you read my recent post about the sin of Sodom.

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  20. First of all, for any who still consider themselves believers in God, a higher power, greater energy, whatever you call it, and also consider the Bible to be a source of great knowledge, we need to know what we are reading. The Bible is not inerrant. The KJV has been translated over 500 times since 1611. If we are going to allow others to use it against us, we need to make sure they have the Greek and Hebrew texts available as well, because taken in those contexts, entire chapters take on new meaning. I sit in my Presbyterian Church each week, though I'm universalist, and look out at 6 couples holding hands who are gay. God's love is there in many many places for all. If I translate the commandment "Thou Shalt Not Kill", taken in Greek or Hebrew context, I've killed many times over simply by speaking meanly to others and killing their spirit of hope or joy. For anyone out there who is looking at this blog and thinking of ways to beat someone up with their Bible, I'd say you better go back and get some education on different languages, customs, time frames, and authors. Kind of like Paul telling women not to teach. Well, the wives in that time rarely left the home, and rarely spoke to their husbands. They didn't cut or braid their hair, because the prostitutes cut their hair, and had much more power than wives did. Fundamentalists just love to throw Paul around, and crap all over female pastors, yet, in a legalistic way, leave out the rest of what he really said. And what he really said, in Greek, doesn't translate to what we've been taught. So for all you gays who might entertain a notion of someday going to a church, you need to know that there are many, many places where you will be welcome.

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  21. Sadly, I believe Airman's approach is the only logically sound course of action for a true believer in the Mormon or Biblical version of God. That God asks for everything. That God places no premium on our happiness in this life. That God seems content to let countless millions be miserable for the duration of their time on this planet with the notion that it will all get sorted out and justly rewarded in the next life. A bible or prophet that is "fallible" and whose commandments can be picked over like an ala carte dinner menu is worthless as a moral absolute. If one must find the true truths therein based on our own moral compass then why not simply trust that moral compass in every respect?

    I decided to trust mine and rest from the mental gymnastics required to believe in a "loving" god who made me one way and then commanded me to be someone else. My moral compass tells me it's beautiful and fulfilling and loving to be intimate with my boyfriend.

    Why, just yesterday, in fact, as we held and groped each other in the warm pacific surf, lit by the glow of a spectacular sunset, and laughing as our kisses were interrupted by waves literally sweeping us off our feet,I couldn't imagine a happier, more perfect moment.

    Now, who is this "god" fellow and what does he want? He better not try to take away my perfect moments like yesterday.

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  22. Part 1: I was once airman. I thought all the same things.. its all I was ever exposed to, my ideas of God where the ones I was taught they were my filters. When I came out, I had to rediscover my own sense of truth for myself and created new filters. Airman, let me ask you, if you are so OK with your choice and God and religion and at peace, why do you feel the need to be on this blog and monitor others?

    My own life's discovery has led me to believe that If one feels his natural calling in the world is to be married, I think that is fine... If one feels the same for another man or woman of the same sex, that is fine.

    Many people can't seem to find their own way in the world and look to churches of various approaches to define their boundaries and give them peace of mind or reassurance that they are on the one true path. Yet, there are so many paths, from so many diverse backgrounds that feel the same; how can this be? How can so many Gods and so many faiths have so many different ideas? This has been the conundrum for as long as we have been aware of "others." Some may demonize others, or believe that they are right and "others" are deluded. I'm convinced that we can be convinced of anything... so where does that leave us all?

    It is a personal journey we all take, one that is our own, shared at times with others. The question is whom will we share the journey with. I like to travel well with others... if we don't then we find new traveling partners. I agree, Abrahams journey was his own, and to one man he may be a prophet and to another he may have been a possible homicidal lunatic. Maybe not all of us have so much darkness inside to overcome as did Abraham. Whether of Jesus or Abraham, people focus on sacrifice and forget the love and joy of living. Of course life has sacrifice at times, but if it is done willingly why should it really be a sacrifice, if one is getting benefit from it? If one is not getting benefit from it then they better reexamine their paradigm.

    It seems that that historically what "God said" is mostly defined by other Men (and King James had homosexual love affairs and seemed to have been his orientation not just a dalliance) I have yet to see God descend in a cloud of Glory as I suspect most people have not, and most of the Yogi's and Swami's and enlightened ones have said that IT/HE/SHE seems to live within and is ever present in all things: I subscribe to this idea.. god is always with you, it is impossible, if you believe in an all present force, to find yourself outside of it. If there is something outside of it like Satan, then it has to be equal to it and self created... either God created it all or did not. If we exist in the world of sexual attractions, then we are created by God, infact, I will go so far to say that either God created the darkness or it is in its own right its own God. It can't be any other way.

    To be continued in Part 2....

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  23. Part 2: In discussion with my Mormon father on this subject, he said: Part 2:

    "does this make everything OK, I mean what is right and what is wrong?" My response to him was that it is ones duty in life to full-fill the "measure of your creation" it is not the same for all. Some choose to march with peace signs, some to fight wars and kill, some to love a man and some to love a woman, some to fight for life and healing and others for killing and murder. Some to be a Mormon, others a Muslim. They all make up creation and all have positive and negative effects. A parent of a child murdered may fight for children's rights and protections. Who knows.

    But the "measure of my creation" is not to be a murderer or a heterosexual for that matter. Everyone's measure of creation and purpose is different. We are not a world of cookie cutters, it is a global world now, and we can choose for ourselves (the free world) and are not bound by our births, languages and cultures.

    Sacrifice can also be giving up your sacred cow of peaceful, controlled and monitored and bordered existence, in order to strike out and find ones own way in the world, or the opposite if you feel called. But by what do you measure? I think the key is, not to inhibit another's belief and project it on others. Airman, you say you are speaking for yourself, but since you feel compelled to share your projected your belief with others on a blog that is dealing with coming out by people who have been victimized by the definition of the words you choose, then it is natural that some of us may feel defensive, as we are used to having those words hurled at us from all sides. I used to use those words, I know them, most of us do. So you are not telling us anything we have not heard already for our entire lives. I'm sure you don't mean to, but it comes across as shaming, just as I'm doing now. That is the unfortunate result of polarization.

    Does allowing people choice and freedom to express themselves in their own way mean there are no mores or ethics? Of course not, in a society we have determined that things that harm others are not tolerated. To take a life will not be tolerated, unless he did it in war or was a judge, or executioner, then its Ok. Does that honor, the simple statement "thous shalt not kill?" (I didn't see an exception clause) Contradictions exist everywhere, it would seem that we have a God given ability to decipher things to an extent on our own. I can allow a shark to be a shark, but don't necessarily want to swim with them.. because I respect their measure of creation.

    But how do Gays and Lesbians and Transgendered people harm anyone? Why shouldn't they be allowed to be with whom they wish? Why are others so concerned about their souls and choices and behavior? If you don't like them don't socialize with them, or have sex with them. There isn't anything that Gays and Lesbians do that is different in sex then straight people do, except with whom they do it, and whether they have a vagina or a penis to do it with. You find the same ranges of behavior in a heterosexual world as you do in a homosexual one.

    The belabored end...

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  24. Ok, I forgot this part of the thread:

    As to sex: I tried as a teen to have "normal" experiences and then slipped and had a few attractions that seemed extremely natural and compelling...and begged the question: "what is normal?" Though I didn't experience the feeling again until my mission, when very close to one particular companion with-whom I had a deep spiritual and loving feeling even though we did not act on it sexually, we did talk until late hours, tickling each-others arms and hands and companion prayer for hours next to each-other nearly touching. It was electric to me. So what is Normal to one is not to another was my message. I had no such feelings for women, and later when I experimented further with women, I found I liked the sex Ok, but I felt as though I was acting (playing a part) on some level, or just doing what was expected.

    But with a man, I wanted to explore and discover, and exist in a magnetic bond that was like glue. When I kissed a woman it was nice, soft, passionate at times, but not like the deep core feeling that pulled from inside me, and reached down inside the other person. It was a bioenergetic experience that excelled that of my more mindful and physical one. It was the difference between reciting a mantra out of memorization, and doing it with feeling. When with someone I really felt deeply, it was a prayer.

    At times even casually, it was as if a whole life time had existed in a short period of time if done with feeling. I'm sure heterosexuals feel the same, and if so, then why are we not allowed to? I believe God created us as we are, if someone else doesn't, then they should first ask themselves why they are so concerned about me, and then take it up with God and leave me alone.

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  25. Good, solid, enjoyable sex rightly belongs in any committed relationship.

    The only drawback spiritually as far as I can see is not specifically a "gay" problem.

    Seems to me whether the sex you enjoy is heterosexual or homosexual the reality of life is that such pleasure is limited in it's ability to satisfy.

    I don't mean to put sex down as much as to be clear about what we are dealing with.

    Clear in this sense:

    As much as any handsome and well suited couple may feel like they want to stay in bed all day long every day of the year for the rest of their lives...this doesn't really hasn't happened yet for anyone in all of recorded history.

    :-)

    So in real life no matter how much attractiveness there is, people have to go "up" or aspire to a "higher" or more fulfilling satisfactions.

    Your "higher" could be your love for your children, your family, your work, your art, the wilderness, your country, and your God.

    Don't forget music.

    Seems to me, we all have free will, everyone gets to choose...and receive accordingly.

    To conclude, to me, there is no inherent reason why any couple, should get so lost in pleasure that they miss out on the rest of the good life has to offer.

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  26. I like what many people have said on the matter and I feel I relate a lot to the experiences that have been shared. Before I came to terms with being gay and while I was going to BYU, dating girls was never something I wanted to do... but I was taught that I should do it. So I would try with great effort. It wasn't until I was 23 that I actually kissed a girl. I had a few different thoughts/emotions. First, I thought, "this is weird... why do people do this? Or even enjoy it?" Second, I was SO proud of myself. Surely I was straight! I kissed a girl!

    Well, she was the last. About a year ago (at 25 years old) I finally accepted the gay was here to stay. Soon after, I kissed a boy and I understood the years of descriptions and depictions of being "twitter-patted." THIS is why people kiss! I get it!

    Sadly, I am still trying to rework the way I think about sex. I feel like I was taught that it was dirty or bad growing up... and even once you were married it was kind of a naughty thing, you were just allowed to do it then. That description worked for me because I wasn't at all interested in heterosexual sex and I would never admit that I'd like to consider gay sex.

    Now, however... it is a problem. I have done things with other guys, but I haven't had REAL sex. However, the intimacy I have shared with my boyfriend has been really great. I remember having the feeling that I didn't want to sleep because it would mean I would miss a moment next to him. My boyfriend and I are going to New York this December and we have been talking about making that trip special. To be honest... sex is kind of foreign to me. You can't exactly go to your dad and say, hey dad! How do you prepare for gay sex? No one wants to think about two guys going at it.

    But I suspect it will be a very special thing we share. We will figure it out together I suppose. More than anything though, I will be so happy to spend time with him because when we are together, everything is okay.

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  27. Thanks for your honest comments, Jonathan. I wish you and your boyfriend every happiness as you discover and explore each other. I'm sure you will have an experience similar to that which you had the first time you kissed a man - only multiplied exponentially. ;-)

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  28. I'm not sure how I missed this post back in the Spring, but Here's my 2 cents...

    My first sex with a man was uncomfortable and painful. I was 40. My first sex with a woman was pretty amazing. I was 29 on my wedding night. But I'm gay and I'm certain of that.

    My first passionate Love was with a man and it was a gazillion times more than the love I ever had with my wife. The sex with THIS man was also amazing to a degree I hadn't thought possible...far better than my wedding night.

    If I can be a bit graphic...I've had some pretty good sex with myself(masturbation). Sex with my wife felt like two people masturbating together. It was OK. That's as good as it got and I always felt like I had to say "thank you" afterwards. It was one person doing something for the other and then vice versa. Believe it or not, I was far more into the sex in my marriage than my wife ever was. Only with a man have I ever felt that the passion was mutual, at the same time. I used to joke that any sex was better than no sex.

    With a man I'm love with it's not a favor. It's mutual And it's the best thing I've ever experienced.

    Now, I'm not in a relationship. I'm alone and no sex is better than the sex I had had with my wife.

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  29. Hey, DPS, thanks for your comments. Your experience parallels that of so many others. And again, it's good for this information to be "out there" for others. I'm planning to revisit this subject in the future ...

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  30. I side with Airman. I am gay, but I was so in denial, and I was so committed to doing what the Lord wanted that I married and after years finally became a dad. Eventually, I came out, and our strained marriage entered a partially cynical, somewhat antagonistic and even outright adversarial phase. Under enormous pressures, I strayed and made out with a guy. The passion was natural, the kisses delicious, the eros so expressive of what I felt inside me, but guilt set in, and I agonized. I was in torment not because I was raised to know better, not just because I had been unfaithful, but because I had gone astray against God. I confessed and was subjected to the buffetings of a homophobic LDS Church and vindictive spouse, all for the faith I know to be true. But a few members came to me as angels, and in the end I had to get my answer about what to do from God. When it came, it was sweet, it was beautiful, and it was the turning point in my life. I told Him of my desire to be with a man, to have passionate explosive and riveting sex with him. Heavenly Father told me, in my mind, though powerfully and discernibly, that He knew and understood. I marveled that He and I could speak of such things sans any condemnation or threats or recriminations. Then He told me the words that stopped me in my tracks, because they were so tender, so loving, and vulnerable, almost tearfully entreating: "Choose Me. I'll be your Man. I will fulfill you. If you do, I promise you meaning and understanding will come to you, love and happiness too, in Me." Now, after a painful six months, I'm once again active, fully restored to fellowship, still married, true it is without any passion, but with bonds of love that can grow into the next life, but with a Heavenly Father who is now my "Dad", and His love is worth anything I have had and will have to sacrifice to continually feel it. In the end, He'll make everything right.

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